Interview with Mary Mayenfisch: business, rights and social media

Victor Kuznetsov: Good afternoon Mrs Mayenfisch, thank you very much for the time you have given to us for this interview. 

Mary Mayenfisch: Good afternoon.

Victor Kuznetsov: You are an extraordinary person with a very interesting life path. What initially inspired you to act in the defense of justice and human rights? 

Mary Mayenfisch: So, that’s a very interesting question, it was really funny, because I was born on a farm, on a farm in Ireland and the whole thing started off with animals. We had a lot of cats, about 30-35 cats, and I felt I had to take care of them, because they were dying. And so I started looking after those animals, and as I grew older,  I became very concerned about people. My father was very ill my whole life and it made me compassionate about people in general and about people’s lives. Then I went to boarding school, and in boarding school I saw injustice (from time to time), I decided: the way you could deal with what you felt wasn’t fair was to become the delegate of the class (class prefect), so that you then could go forward and talk to people in authority and make things better.  It’s a fantastic start to being able to impact necessary change, rather than being a victim, to take hold of the situations, to talk in a very concrete way and find some solutions.

That is what started me off. Then I went to University and decided to study law. When I was in University, I became very concerned about social justice. I remember the first time I really had a moment of great awakening, I was in a class, where we were talking about the death penalty. My professor in that law class basically said  that the «death penalty does not deter crime. So why should we continue to have a penalty which doesn’t actually change anything?». That was the beginning of my «venture» into human rights. The other thing I found when I was young, is that I didn’t have much of a filter: so when I saw something that wasn’t correct, I would say it, and I would see the people didn’t always react well. They found it very strange that I would say what I felt and speak up. But I have continued in this way my whole life. I’m a little better at explaining what I say now, but I think it’s always very important to speak the truth. I grew up in a family where speaking the truth was important… 

Mikhail Alimov: Throughout your career you’ve also been fighting for the rights of women. Have you encountered any particular cases where women’s rights were abused? If yes, which impact did it leave in you professionally, personally? 

[MM] Yes, I have always fought for women’s rights. I had a very «modern» mother - a mother who encouraged me to be the first woman in my family in Ireland to go to University. When I started working as a lawyer, I was only 24. I had never seen any violence in my family, but I became very concerned with the work I did, because I worked in the area of family law. I saw violence towards women that I had never even understood  existed. For me, it was a complete wake-up call. I worked in Ireland as a lawyer for 6-8 years. I saw a lot of family problems, and in many cases it was very difficult for me, a young lawyer, to deal with that. I don’t think I should go into the exact stories of all this violence, but that was my wake up call, because I had never seen that in my family life. I saw that in my legal practice… 

[MA]: did it boost you professionally? 

[MM] I don’t know if it helped my professional career. I’m a professional lawyer, and when you train as a lawyer in a country like Ireland, you tend to be called on to work in many different areas of law, you become a generalist really. So I worked a lot in family law and if you ask if this did «boost my career», a lot of people I worked with were sociologists or social workers, who worked with and in difficult situations, and they felt that I had the compassion and the empathy needed to deal with that. If you call that «boosting», yes. But I also worked a lot in criminal law. I was extremely happy to be able to help people who didn’t have a voice, to give a voice to some people who, perhaps, hadn’t had a good childhood, hadn’t had good parenting. I was able to help them. I can tell you a story: just before I left Ireland, I announced that I was coming to Switzerland to get married, and one of my former clients, a young man who was in prison, decided to see me before I left Ireland; and he said to me that in his whole life I was the only person who had ever actually helped him. So, it really boosted me in terms of having chosen the right profession. Not for success, or money, but just to say: I chose a profession where I could help, which is what I wanted to do.

[VK]: Continuing with the theme of lawlessness and criminality, For many years, you have been an ardent opponent of lawlessness on behalf of big companies and corporations around the World. Unfortunately, business today has too often no interest in respecting human rights. According to you, what changes should take place in the behaviour of business structures today, in order to make our world a better and more fair place? Should there be, perhaps, a completely new international law system? How can corporations participate in the implementation of the so-called "Sustainable development goals"? 

[MM] Just to tell you, perhaps, why I became interested in this subject to start with: when I came to Switzerland, I studied again. I did a postgraduate LLM degree in European Economic International law. While I was doing that course, one of the professors told the class that big corporations had become more powerful than countries. For me, that was very shocking because as a lawyer I knew that laws are national, they are specific to countries. If you do something in a country which is illegal, you are subject to the law of that country. But I realized that for companies traveling overseas and doing global business, there was nobody and no institution that could control what they are doing. So, with that in mind, I began to follow what was happening globally in relation to big corporations.

In 2005, I was invited by the head of Amnesty International , Switzerland, Daniel Bolomey (he was the head of Amnesty before the current director, Manon Schick), and he asked me to be part of a group  -the Business and Human Rights group of Amnesty International Switzerland. This work allowed me to really understand what was happening globally in relation to abuses of human rights by corporations. Since 2005, I have been working in this group lobbying corporations to behave better, lobbying some of the biggest corporations in Switzerland, talking to them about what they are doing, about what is incorrect and unfair, trying to move them forward so that business can be a force for good.

 In relation to your question, as to whether we need a completely new international legal system - I would say - yes! To bring you up to date on what is happening here in Switzerland: about 2 years ago, in 2016, 85 non governmental organisations ( NGOs) got together and formed a group looking for a new legal system, a new way of regulating business. They collected 160 000 signatures from Swiss people for an initiative in Swiss law. This is called «The Responsible Business Initiative».

This initiative is calling on the Swiss government to control and regulate globally  corporations which are Swiss, or Swiss-based. On the one hand, there has been a lot of opposition to this in Switzerland, mostly coming from business forums and business groups. On the other hand, there are companies that understand that we cannot continue to do business in the way we are doing business today.

In parallel to this, from a global perspective, there has been a lot of work carried out by  Professor John Ruggie, who was appointed by Kofi Annan, former Director General of the United Nations. Kofi Annan set up the Global Compact, which you may have heard about, but he also appointed John Ruggie as Special Rapporteur for Business and Human rights at the United Nations. John Ruggie went around the world and got a general consensus from business organizations and from governments and he then put forward the idea of what is called the «UN Guiding Principles» which the UN Human Rights Council unanimously agreed to in 2011. Now, countries from all over the world are setting up their National Action Plans on Business and Human Rights, considering and stating how these different countries should regulate their multinational corporations, not only inside their country, but in other countries where they do business. So, as you said, there is a new international system underway and it’s not going to go backwards. In addition and in parallel to this there are a lot of discussions underway at the United Nations, looking for a binding Human Rights treaty to regulate multinational corporations globally.

The world is changing, some corporations understand that, some governments understand that, but we can’t go backwards, because if we do - we won’t be able to maintain and save the world in which we live. 

[VK]: Our readers are perhaps going to ask themselves the following question: Is it possible, today in 2019, for big-scale international business to maintain profitability without violating basic human rights or ecological standards? (Thinking about big clothes production companies)What is your opinion concerning this problem? 

[MM] You know, the way companies are doing business today is not working: they are violating human rights and they are also losing their profitability. Because every time these companies are found to be violating human rights, they lose money. Think about the problem of «British Petrol» (- BP) in the Gulf of Mexico: that huge accident caused them billions and billions of dollars, because they were not doing what was necessary to avoid that disaster.

Think about what’s going on in Bangladesh now and in the recent past. You may have heard about  the «Rana Plaza» disaster? The building which collapsed in 2013 and more than 1,200 people died. That accident put a lot of pressure on many companies all over the world whose workers died in that disaster.  A company does not want to find  itself responsible for the deaths of people, it’s really not good for its reputation and  brand, and you lose money at the same time. In my opinion, companies are going to have to find a way to walk that line to try not to violate human rights and, at the same time, be profitable.

This whole discussion in relation to profitability is quite strange to me as  I personally think that companies could pay a little more to the people working in their supply chains. The salaries paid is always quite basic, yet they do a good job. I don’t think it can continue in the way it’s going now. 

[VK]: Is it going to last for a long time?

[MM] I think now that a lot of companies are beginning to realize that there is a huge cost to not doing business in the correct way. Look at Facebook - the problems they are having because they haven’t looked after the data of the people who had trusted them. Look at Google and their problems right now. Apple now has huge problems in countries like China, because they weren’t looking after the people working on the supply chains. There had been scandals and people have committed suicide. I don’t think business can  continue on in this way for a long time.

[MA]: that actually leads to my next question. We are living in a very tech-friendly society. But at the same time this leads to change in the communicational environment, which is becoming more and more aggressive: people are often insulting each other, there is clearly an abuse of human rights online. An ethical question comes up: how to restrict human rights abuse online, without violating the confidentiality of internet users? Which measures, in your opinion, could be taken?

[MM] At the moment, those tech-companies have not protected people’s confidential data. They have personal data and have given it away, without permission. In 2000, when I was working with some of my students in the EHL on their theses on data protection, one of my students found that hotel companies were getting information about their clients, and, legally speaking, they were supposed to tell their clients what information they had about them. They were supposed and give those clients access to change that data. That was not given: information has been shared all around the world in the hospitality industry, about people’s likes/dislikes, and so on and even today people are not aware of the fact that their rights have and are being violated. This is an abuse of the rights of human beings, because we have a right to our name, to our information, which shouldn’t be abused.

In today’s world it’s very complex, because, if we continue to do as we are doing, and if tech companies continue to share information as they are doing now and if companies don’t begin to behave correctly (and they’re not behaving correctly now), where are we going in terms of trust? There is little trust left in our world, in my opinion. People don’t trust companies, they don’t trust media, they don’t trust each other.  I mean, who do you trust ?

[VK] & [MA]: No, we don’t trust technology, or that our information is confidential

[MM] I have asked this question about trust many times in the last 10 years when I teach Business and Human Rights in different Universities and colleges. I have asked students of all ages: who do you trust? And people sit there for a while when I ask the question, and they realize a terrible thing: they trust nobody. However, I have heard students say, «I trust my teacher». When you are working in education, there is no politics, there is no money. There is only knowledge…

[VK]: You have worked in numerous companies in different countries and have met a lot of remarkable people. Have your actions ever been criticized? What resistance did you endure ?

[MM] Often! In Ireland, we say «what doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger». It is important to learn to have resilience. I have had many failures, as have many people. But I remember some years ago when my then 11 year-old  daughter said that «if something goes wrong, even if you have worked really hard and done the best you can, don’t take it personally. Take a step back and say: what really happened there?», even at that age she understood a lot.  I would say that being «legal» has really helped me in my life. It gives me a certain amount of rationality. When you tell the truth, you often face problems. If you’re not political (and I’m not political, although I can be quite diplomatic) you can have problems. I believe that there is something up there, more important than myself, and I try to follow that star even when it makes life a little tricky.

[MA]: Do you believe in God?

[MM] I do. I believe that we all have our own beliefs and have the right to our own beliefs. For some people, belief in God could be the belief in values. I believe in tolerance and openmindness. And in allowing each person to have their own values and beliefs.

[VK]: After such a diverse life path, what circumstances made you come to Champittet and work as a career guidance councellor? 

[MM] That’s a very good question, I have been in education now for over 25 years, working in EHL, Geneva, Pepperdine, Business School Lausanne, giving courses in Universities and schools. One of the reasons I took this job in Champittet was that I believe in young people. I believe that I can help young people think clearly about their futures.  One day I woke up and thought: I need to go to talk to younger students, because younger people, the millennials, are obviously changing the way the world is or should be - and I feel I understand better how younger people are thinking, than people of my own generation. I understand that the world needs to change - that’s what the millennials today are saying too. I decided to come to Champittet and see how I could work with younger students, and I really love it, actually!

[MA]: So, is it a new experience for you?

[MM] From an educational perspective - yes.

[MA]: From your position of the career guidance counsellor, which mistakes or steps would you recommend your students to always avoid in the future?

[MM] I think it is very important to, first of all, talk about what success means. Does success mean making a lot of money? Does success mean being happy? Does success mean feeling that every day you are working with the values that you believe in? What is it? If a student ever said to me that success is just money - that would make me really worried. I would say to myself: life is short, right, is there not more to life than money? I would hope that during all our lives we would want to have a positive impact. It would be very worrying for me if that wasn’t the situation, right?

In terms of success, for me it would be very important that I help students to understand what the world is all about, what’s going on, what’s needed. I have had a career myself, I have worked in business, I am still working on different projects and with different objectives. So, I know what is going on in the world, I know, kind of, what’s needed in the world, I feel I can help students understand that too. Probably, when you talk with your teachers, you have some ideas. I mean, when you are in your history, geography, economy classes, you’re hearing a lot, you have a huge access to information. The point really is: what do you do with that access, how do you as students work with that? Both of you (Victor and Micha) are delegates for your classes. So, for me, you’re also influential people. And what you, Victor, are trying to do now with your paper is extremely important, because you’re trying to share knowledge.

When students come to me for advice on their futures – they may be thinking of going to go to a business school, or they are thinking of studying law - I try to have conversations and have you understand: what’s going on externally in our world today, so that you can actually make proper choices in relation to your futures.

[MA]: Do you think that it is possible to actually achieve this goal in general for all the students you see? 

[MM] I think I can help students. The first thing, the big problem I’ve seen externally is (particularly in the business world)  that a lot of people don’t know who they are themselves. This means, before you go anywhere in life, you have to have an idea of who you are. This is the hard part when you’re younger. If I can have discussions with students and try and help them to understand who they are, where they want to go, where they see themselves in 5 years time, why they choose the studies they choose, what do those studies entail, I think that is important. You know, here in Champittet we are using a platform called «Unifrog». That platform has wonderful resources which allow us to  look at subject matter it allows students to understand what different universities and what different schools are doing, and hopefully that will make students who I speak to begin to think: «Why did I want to be a lawyer? Why did I want to be a doctor? I really don’t like working with people!», and it might be better to change such career plans!

[MA]: Coming back to my first question on this topic: which mistakes or steps would you recommend your students to avoid? 

[MM] Don’t just listen to what everyone tells you, unless you feel you’ve been given informed, essential information.

Not everybody understands what’s going on in the world. Not everybody understands what courses are out there, what education is talking about at a higher level. So it’s very important that students speak to the right people in relation to their futures. You have great teachers here. You have experts coming from many different countries, many different backgrounds, who can really help you to structure your thoughts. As career counsellor, I will also help you, but you have great professors with great knowledge. Find the people you trust: you know who you trust, dear students! 

[MA]: My last question: You repeatedly said that education is extremely undervalued. What lead you to such an opinion and what could we do to change this? How should the modern educational system be modified for further improvement?

[MM] I think education is undervalued, because if it was understood that the only people who are still trusted are educators. Education is not political. There are wonderful people in education, but in many countries, in most countries, teachers are badly paid and not appreciated. I would say, having worked in schools for a number of years: it’s a hard job. It’s a very tough job, too: you have to be really dedicated. I would say, that countries need to pay the teachers well, because they hold the key to a successful world. I heard a wonderful man, Edgar Morin, a French sociologist and UNESCO Chair of Complexity. According to M Morin, education is failing. «We need to teach people to love each other» - that should be the aim of education, he thinks. 

[VK]: At the end, I would like to ask you several short straight-forward questions (requiring short answers):

• In your opinion, what is the most important quality that a young person in the 21st Century must have? 

• Authenticity. And courage. I feel today, that people are losing courage. They’re afraid. I’m not sure exactly what they’re afraid of.

• Do you enjoy literature? Do you have a book you like most?

• I love it. I read all the time. I read a lot of crime stories, I love trying to work out the answer. But my favorite book of all times is called «Women who run with the Wolves» by Clarissa Pincola Estes, novel writer, storyteller and psychologist. It took me three years to read that book, it is very, very deep. It talks about intuition. We must remember that our first intuition is often the correct one.

• Greatest professional success in your life?

• This is an on-going story… a story of a former student, who read one of my blogs on human rights and business, who is involved in this area himself, and with whom I will hopefully be working in the future to help towards better practices in business. For me, that’s extremely important, to know I have been helpful.

• Do you have a favourite company top-manager or political leader?

• I couldn’t think of a favourite company top manager, but I could think of a political leader, and that was Nelson Mandela. 

Mikhail Alimov: thank you so much for this interview and for being so sincere!

Mary Mayenfisch: You welcome! Thanks to you!

Please contact Mary Mayenfisch: mary.mayenfisch@champittet.ch

For those who would like to learn more:

https://reconnectingwithcommonsense.worldpress.com